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Pupil interview panels – getting it right

Over the last couple of days a motion being discussed at the NASUWT (National Association of Schoolmasters/Union of Women Teachers) to strike over increasing student voice has sparked a number of alarmist articles across the press. (Click here for our formal response).

Essentially they pull out a few examples of bad or questionable practice of involving pupils in the interview process and from there draw the conclusion that pupils shouldn’t be listened to. So the NASUWT has found a few examples of where schools appear to have managed the process badly and so  want to ban the process completely.  I’m suggesting a different approach: get schools to manage the process well.

I’ve worked in many schools where they’ve found the process invaluable because pupils give them a different perspective on the candidates. Most of them use a process something like this:

  1. Governors decide on your interview process, how the day will be run and what role pupils will play in this (bearing in mind that any decision of who to employ is ultimately down to the governors).
  2. Write down the process and responsibilities and share with all involved, including pupils and prospective candidates (i.e. put it in the application pack).
  3. Get together a representative group of pupils, explain the process to them, including how much weight their views will be given. This maybe your school council or a group s/elected for this purpose, but here we’ll assume it’s the school council.
  4. Get the school council members to go to other classes in the school (how many depends on the role being applied for, for a Head you may want them to go to all classes):
    1. Discuss,  ‘what makes a good Head/Deputy/Teacher/etc.?’
    2. Each class should decide on the top 3 qualities/skills.
    3. These should be recorded by the school council representative.
  5. The school council should be given training on:
    1. Confidentiality
    2. Active listening
    3. Open v. Closed questions
    4. Leading questions
    5. Questions candidates might ask
  6. The school council then discusses:
    1. What the other pupils have said makes a good Head/Deputy/Teacher/etc.?
    2. They choose the most important of these.
    3. What questions would you ask to find out if someone had each of these?
    4. What sort of answers would be good or bad?
  7. This list of questions is then drawn up along with a marking sheet for each of the questions/qualities.
  8. Setting up the pupil panel:
    1. The pupil panel is separate to the adult panel (ideally there should be no other adults in the room, where safeguarding good practice allows).
    2. One student is nominated as the chair.
    3. The pupil panel is not a ‘weeding out’ stage.
    4. Candidates are encouraged to ask the pupil panel questions to ensure this is a two-way process.
  9. As in formal interviews each candidate is asked the same set of questions. Each member of the pupil panel writes comments and marks on their marking sheet. After each candidate has left pupils discuss them and come to a joint conclusion. These are written down and passed to the adult interview panel.
  10. The pupil panel meets with the adult interview panel so the adult panel can ask for clarification or explanation of the pupil panel’s findings.
  11. The adult interview panel makes the decision on who to appoint. Giving whatever weight to the pupil’s views they feel it merits. If they wish to they can question the pupil panel on how they arrived at their decision.
  12. The application process is evaluated so that it can be improved for next time:
    1. Discussion with school council about how it went: did they ask the right types of questions; did they get the kinds of answers they were expecting, etc.?
    2. Where possible, discussion with candidates about how they felt about the process.

The benefits you’ll get from involving pupils in the interview process:

  • A wider variety of perspectives on candidates.
  • Candidates get a different view on the school.
  • Pupils learn something about what makes a good teacher (and how hard it is to be one).
  • You might learn something about what pupils value in a good teacher (I’ve never once seen the answer, ‘a pushover’).
  • Pupils learn about how interviews work, useful knowledge when entering the work force.
  • A good starting point for relationships between pupils and a new teacher.
  • It says that your school has pupils as its focus and that’s what you expect of your staff too.

And here are a few other people’s views on the benefits of pupils’ involvement in the interview process:

From staff and pupils: BBC News

From another governor (I mean other than me): Jaynehowarth’s Weblog

From Headteachers and another teaching union: ASCL (Association of School and College Leaders)

So, please don’t throw the baby out with the bath water, just improve the processes and training around involving pupils.

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Official response to NASUWT’s threat of industrial action

Easter weekend was a very interesting time on the student voice front. At its Annual Conference, NASUWT said they were considering striking because student voice is being taken too far.

Here’s our statement on the subject:

‘Successful organisations always consider ‘culture fit’ when making any appointment. With schools, it is natural to do this is by involving young people in teacher appointments, with the appropriate support.

The attack on student voice we’ve seen by NASUWT and sections of the press is un-measured and misconceived. Education cannot return to the days of simple knowledge transfer between teacher and student. This traditional approach to learning will not equip young people to face the modern world.

Student voice, when approached in a considered and clear way, is the best way to help young people to be active, questioning and informed citizens. This is exactly what Britain needs in 2010’

Here are six misconceptions that the NASUWT, and the press, are making about student voice:

Misconception The truth
Poor examples of student voice mean that the whole idea of student voice is a bad one Just because student voice has had negative, and isolated, consequences in some schools, it doesn’t mean that the whole concept isn’t a good idea.
Poor practice in student voice is widespread Thousands of schools across the country benefit from involving young people in important school decisions
Young people are to blame for bad examples of student voice They aren’t, the process needs to be managed better by teachers (in a clear and considered way)
Young people on interview panels select who gets the job Young people are having a say on who gets the job, from their perspective in the school.
Student voice is Government – imposed Student voice has not been imposed externally, but grown organically.
Better student voice equals worse teacher voice Schools that have effective student voice also have empowered, effective and vocal teachers

And here’s those misconceptions explained:

1. Poor examples of student voice mean that the whole idea of student voice is a bad one

‘the way many schools use student voice is “demeaning, embarrassing and humiliating” to teachers’

Chris Keates, General Secretary, NASUWT

NASUWT are right to be concerned about inappropriate practice with student voice. We’re concerned too, just like we’re concerned about anything that is inappropriate.

But those schools that have developed poor practice should be encouraged to approach student voice in a more considered and planned way, rather than not do it at all.

Just because student voice has had negative consequences in some schools, it doesn’t mean that the whole idea is a bad one.

2. Poor practice in student voice is widespread

NASUWT – the largest UK-wide teachers’ union – could only find around 200 examples of poor practice with student voice.

We’re in touch with thousands of schools across the country who benefit from involving young people in important school decisions. This is happening day in day out, and young people, schools and teachers are reaping the benefits. Better behaviour, more engagement with learning, improved school environment, the list goes on…

Interestingly, a number of involvers’ teacher friends even sent positive case studies to NASUWT when they contacted their members looking for bad examples. They received a stock reply saying ‘thank you for your case of the abuse of student voice’. We’d like to ask NASUWT – how many teachers replied citing positive examples of student voice? And what happened to them?

Even some of the so-called ‘poor’ case studies are really clutching at straws. Take a look at this example in the Daily Mail yesterday:

From http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1263769/Now-teachers-ordered-smile-pupils.html

The aggrieved candidate for this job pointed out that the interview was conducted ‘very formally’. She also mentions two very reasonable questions that were asked by the young panel – one about her subject, and one about disruption.

This is hardly an example of poor practice, if the young panel were interested in that subject being taught well, and without any interruptions from badly behaved members of the class. How can we object to that? And did the candidate feel aggrieved because she didn’t get the job?

3. Young people are to blame for bad examples of student voice

Young people are not evil!

If they say something inappropriate in a lesson observation, that’s because that lesson observation hasn’t been planned properly. If they ask something inappropriate in a teacher interview, that’s because nobody has gone through the questions with them beforehand.

If they give inappropriate feedback in an interview, that’s because they’ve not been trained on how to construct feedback in a diplomatic way. Just like for adults.

Hardly rocket science!

4. That young people on interview panels select who gets the job

Young people are not the ones deciding who gets the job. They are having a say on it, and offering an opinion from a different perspective. The school staff and Governors of the school still have the final say, are still legally responsible, and are influenced by young people’s views  to an extent that they choose.

The decision making process needs to be made clear to the candidate (which has given rise to some of the problems we’ve seen highlighted in the press).

Student voice, when used in this way, takes advantage of the educational opportunity that being on an interview panel presents. It links well with work-related learning, and careers advice – why not use that opportunity?

5. Student voice is Government – imposed

‘a Government scheme called Student voice’
Melanie Phillips, Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1263612/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-How-richly-ironic-teachers-ludicrous-obsession-pupil-power-putting-work.html

Student voice has not been forced on schools by this, or any, Government.

Student voice has come from schools because they know it’s a good idea. It has taken root in schools because many teachers realise the need to prepare their students for adult life in more sophisticated ways. It has not been imposed externally, but grown organically.

Schools that see the benefits of involving young people in their education every single day, with the appropriate support. It’s also supported with a range of academic research – here’s a few links:

Geoff Whitty’s research: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/research/data/uploadfiles/DCSF-RR001.pdf

Carnegie YP research: http://cypi.carnegieuktrust.org.uk/cypi/publications

GTCE research: http://www.gtce.org.uk/documents/publicationpdfs/pupil_part_anthology1109.pdf

The Labour government has supported to schools, as part of the Children’s Plan, with this – but encourages them to do so in a way that works for them.

It’s also far more than just teacher appointments, and lesson observations – but young people being involved in most aspects of the work of the school!

6. Better student voice equals worse teacher voice

‘Student Voice scheme is not being abused. It is itself an abuse of education by drastically confusing the respective roles of teacher and pupil. This grotesque approach has not descended out of a clear blue sky. More profoundly and devastatingly, for several decades the entire education establishment has gone along with the benighted belief that pupils should usurp the authority of teachers in the classroom itself’ Melanie Phillips, Daily Mail

Wow. Go Melanie.

Both teachers and young people want to go to/work in a stimulating and effective institution. Student voice helps those two groups to work together to do just that.

Schools that have effective student voice also have empowered, effective and vocal teachers. The two are not mutually exclusive. Student voice is not about ‘pupil power’, but about a school’s ethos and culture, and young people benefit when they are part of it.

________

We’ll be writing to the NASUWT to suggest a more measured approach this week.

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The Fun Theory

I just came across this video (thanks to@hellostanley for pointing it out):

And it seems to me that this is exactly what school councils should be about: making things fun, but in a way that improves other things too.

There are two more excellent, funny videos on thefuntheory.com website as well as a competition.  If you can come up with an idea for how you could change people’s behaviour in a fun way, you could get a €2,500 (£2,250) grant to make it happen!

So watch the videos, get some ideas and get your entry in quick, it closes on the 14th November.

Let us know what you’re doing to make things fun.

I know this might be seen as me giving free advertising for VW, but when it’s a good idea, it’s a good idea! That’s the beauty of making things fun. You can’t argue with it, you just want to spread it around. Your school council needs to make use of this!

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School Councillor Profiles: Filippo from Italy

Filippo from Italy telling us about his job as a school councillor:

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News

Chris Keates vs the Green Cross Code Man

Who would win? Chris Keates or the Green Cross Code Man?
Who would win? Chris Keates or the Green Cross Code Man?

I came across these two articles over the weekend thanks to Twitter.

The first is on the TES website and puports to contrast two views on pupil/student voice:

http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=6020426&navcode=94

On one side is Chris Keates, the head of the NASUWT, on the other is Schools Minister, Vernon Coaker. Unfortunately it doesn’t actually do a very good job of this. Chris Keates puts forward a clear, reasoned argument, but essentially based around the idea that ‘advanced pupil voice can be bad for teachers where it isn’t done well, so it shouldn’t be done at anywhere.’ Vernon Coaker’s counterpoint unfortuately doesn’t address this argument directly at all, it just reads like a Government press release on current policy. I’d love to see someone like Vernon Coaker, an ex-teacher and real advocate for children and young people, address the NASUWT’s arguments head on.

Stop, Look and Listen!
Stop, Look and Listen!

However, the other article I came across put the other side of the arguement very well in an incredibly practical way. It from the blog of a couple of teachers (one which I’ll be following closely from now on) and talks about how getting students’ feedback on their schemes of work is an essential part of improving learning and teaching. They’ve got a great name for it too:

http://www.staffroomproject.com/taketheplunge/2009/08/green-cross-learning-stop-look-and-listen

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News

It’s International Youth Day – what are you doing?

Although you wouldn’t know it from the websites of the Prime Minister or the Department for Education and Skills, today is International Youth Day. The reason I highlight that those two websites don’t even mention it (I’ve searched), let alone put them on their home pages is that this day was instituted by UN World Conference of Ministers Responsible for Youth in 1998. It’s a shame that it’s been forgotten about already.

Its true - the UN says so.
It's true - the UN says so.

Anyway, the point of these days (if you ever hear about them) is to spur you into action. So what are you doing to help young people today? The 2009 theme is ‘sustainability’:

Sustainability does not only refer to maintaining environmental balance and renewal.Sustainability encapsulates three facets of life: the environment, society and the economy. We live our lives in the overlaps and intersections of these facets, and our actions and attitudes help shape them. Their changing shapes in turn affect the way we are able to live our lives. The negative effects of unsustainable behaviour are not easily contained. As has been proven by the global crises in food, the economy and the environment, the concept of the global village has gone beyond being a useful analogy to being a hard reality, making clear the need toadopt a global sense of social responsibility.

This chimes in very nicely with what we’re trying to do with involver. We’re interested in sustainable participation, and using participation to improve sustainability. We’ve all seen apparently amazing school councils crumble when a great student or teacher who knew how it all worked and was helping steer it left. We want to ensure that schools put structures in place to ensure that things don’t rely on one person, but are established in such a way that everyone shares the load, benefits and the ability to run it.

One small thing you can do to help young people is just tell us your ideas about what support you think involver should be offering to schools, LAs and young people to help them enjoy getting involved. Post a comment below.